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A fundamental problem with Hardy’s 1PS teaching


Ball Position in the One Plane Golf Swing


Posted By: JeffMann
Subject: A fundamental problem with Hardy’s 1PS te
Date Posted: 09 August 2005 at 7:32pm
Let's consider the way Hardy teaches a person to perform the 1PS -- bent over posture with the spine central between the legs, no weight shift during the BS and DS and therefore no movement of the spine from its central position, symmetrical shoulder turn at a right angle to the centrally located spine. Therefore the swing is in-to-in and it is only neutral and square to the target line at a point midway between the legs. If the ball is positioned anywhere in front of this central point, then  the club is hitting the ball while it is moving inwards. This will cause a pull to the left if the clubface is square to the inward-directed swingarc. I noticed that the most frequent complaint on this forum is pulling/hooking. I am not surprised.

How does one hit straight towards the target using Hardy's technique if the ball is not located in a central location?

I presume that some people slide their torso a little to the left so that the clubface follows the target line for a short distance before it turns inwards. Alternatively, they must be directing the swing arc along the target line for a little longer beyond the nadir point which should be centralised between the feet. How else?

Jeff.



Replies:
Posted By: Bob34
Date Posted: 09 August 2005 at 8:03pm

Jeff,

It's interesting that you mention this.  The past few days, I've been working a lot on ball position in my stance. One of the few things I've had problems with on all of my clubs is slightly pulling or pushing the ball and I had orginally thought that had more to do with whether my arms were being passive enough. I'm realizing though that it may have more to do with ball position. I do not know why it is that the club face squares up with the same swing for different clubs using different ball poistions but it seems to. Hope that made sense? At least I don't think I do anything differently as far as the swing goes from one club to another. In short, no matter what club I hit, if I play the ball too far back, I push / draw it, too far forward, I pull / hook it.  It seems to me that the only drawback to the 1 ps is that the club face is square to the target for a less amount of time than that of the 2 ps. Therefore, ball position is probably a little more important.

Regards,

Bob

 



Posted By: Lefty
Date Posted: 09 August 2005 at 8:59pm

Concur.

If there's a drawback - and it's a big if considering most players need the ball to go straight - it is that there's really only a straight ball in play with this swing. Again, this ain't anything to  about!

I find - as I've said in another post - that if I make a little slight and I underline slight - yes, it's easier to type underline than actually underline  - hip "nudge" to the ball, it seems to square my clubface up beautifully. It's almost like you nudge the back hip and then hold it and the rest of the body just comes through together. Very smooth.

Anyway, that's sort of by the by. Today, I hit a couple of pulls and one snapping hook. The swing didn't feel much different to me so I was wondering what might have caused it. I thought of ball position. I thought I was playing it middle on one shot and asked my playing partner who said it was forward. So you may be onto something.

Lefty

 



Posted By: shootin4par
Date Posted: 09 August 2005 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by Bob34

 I do not know why it is that the club face squares up with the same swing for different clubs using different ball poistions but it seems to. Bob

hypothetically, if all your clubs started to release when your hands are at the same point the driver takes the longest to square because the clubhead has the furthest to go from the release point.  also, you tend to lag the longer clubs more and that can alter the release point too



Posted By: Bob34
Date Posted: 09 August 2005 at 9:56pm

shootin4par,

Cool! I was pretty sure there was a good logical explantion for it, just hadn't really thought about it all that much.

Thanks for sparing me the brain power

Regards,

Bob

 



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 09 August 2005 at 11:45pm
Originally posted by JeffMann

Let's consider the way Hardy teaches a person to perform the 1PS -- bent over posture with the spine central between the legs, no weight shift during the BS and DS and therefore no movement of the spine from its central position, symmetrical shoulder turn at a right angle to the centrally located spine. Therefore the swing is in-to-in and it is only neutral and square to the target line at a point midway between the legs. If the ball is positioned anywhere in front of this central point, then  the club is hitting the ball while it is moving inwards. This will cause a pull to the left if the clubface is square to the inward-directed swingarc. I noticed that the most frequent complaint on this forum is pulling/hooking. I am not surprised.

How does one hit straight towards the target using Hardy's technique if the ball is not located in a central location?

I presume that some people slide their torso a little to the left so that the clubface follows the target line for a short distance before it turns inwards. Alternatively, they must be directing the swing arc along the target line for a little longer beyond the nadir point which should be centralised between the feet. How else?

Jeff.


That's a very interesting comment, Jeff.  I'm going to throw out a couple of thoughts that may explain why you don't position the ball in the center of your stance for every club when making the one plane swing.  Two other factors are involved:  the length of the club and the arc of the swing.  The longer the club, the flatter the arc, the later the path turns inside the line.  Therefore, the ball is positioned more forward for the longer clubs.  On the other hand, shorter clubs are swing on a more upright plane.  There is less deviation from the target line in the arc of the shorter clubs.  Therefore, they turn inside the line sooner and hence the ball needs to be positioned closer to the center of the stance.



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 09 August 2005 at 11:52pm
More thoughts on this.

In any type of effective golf swing -- one plane, two plane, or otherwise -- the clubface is only square to the target for an almost infinitesimal amount of time.  That's because, in any proper golf swing, the clubface rotates through impact.  That is, the toe of the clubhead rotates around the heel.  In other words, the toe travels faster than the heel through impact.

A golf club is a two-levered tool.  The shaft is one lever, and the clubhead is the other lever.  If the clubface isn't rotating, the toe and heel are traveling at the same speed.  That's very difficult to achieve in a side-on swing with a two-levered tool.  You'd have to swing the club through impact in a sort of check-swing motion, with no forearm/hand rotation; hence, no shaft rotation; hence no clubface rotation. 

No good player swings the club that way.  Every good player rotates the toe around the heel through impact.  In fact, most poor players do, too.  It's practically unavoidable, and you don't want to avoid it anyway if you intend to use the two-levered tool the way it is designed to be used from a side-on stance.

In spite of the fact that the ball doesn't stay on the clubface very long, there is a lot of going on in that fraction of a second that the ball is compressed against the clubface.  In a well-struck golf shot, the clubface is actually slightly open at first contact with the ball.  While the ball is compressed against the clubface, the clubface is rotating.  "Square" is just a very fine point the clubface passes through on its journey from open to square to closed. 

That being the case, square is a very elusive goal to strive for.  In fact, it’s the wrong goal to strive for if you want to hit good shots.  Good shots result from using the tool – the two levered golf club – properly.  All that means is that you must “release” the clubhead through impact.  Releasing in this case means rotating the face with the proper timing.

As I said above, in a well-struck shot, the clubface is slightly open at first impact with the ball.  The open clubface puts slice spin on the ball.  While the ball is compressed against the face, the toe of the club is traveling faster then the heel.  This puts added pressure – compression – on the outer hemisphere of the ball, more pressure than there is on the inner hemisphere.  The rotation of the toe around the heel puts hook spin on the ball. 

The two forces – slice spin from the open face and hook spin from the rotating toe – act against each other to affect the flight of the ball when it leaves the club.  If the face isn’t closing fast enough, the slice spin will prevail over the hook spin, and the ball will curve to the right.  On the other hand, if the face is rotating fast enough, the added pressure on the outer hemisphere of the ball will cause the hook spin to prevail over the slice spin, and the ball will curve to the left.  The relatively straight shot happens with the two axes of spin counteract each other.

It’s as simple as that, except there are two other dynamics to consider. 

First, it is a physical law that the ball will always start its journey in the direction the clubface is looking when the ball separates.  If the face is open (looking right of the line) when the ball separates, the ball will start to the right of the target.  Whether it continues in that direction is determined by the spin dynamics I’ve described above.  It may continue to go straight to the right, in which case the slice spin and hook spin have counteracted each other; it may curve farther to the right, in which case the slice spin has prevailed; or it may curve back to the left, in which case the hook spin has prevailed.  The same rules apply if the face is looking left, and also when the face is perfectly square at separation.  The ball will go straight, right, or left depending on which axis of spin wins the battle.

Secondly, the path of the clubhead can accentuate the spin bias in either direction.  An in-to-out path tends to accentuate hook spin.  An out-to-in path tends to accentuate slice spin.  In either case, you still have the war between slice spin and hook spin going on, but the path of the clubhead augments the influence of one side or the other.  

The nice thing about the one plane swing is that, when done properly, the path of the club is in-to-in, which eliminates one variable – path induced spin -- but that’s also why it’s important to get your ball position right.  When it’s right, your divots with irons will point very slightly to the left of the target line. 

Of equal or even greater importance is the fact that you don’t have to fret about all that slice spin/hook spin business because the rotational release with passive arms and hands will take care of your timing issues for you.  That’s the real elegance of the one plane swing.




Posted By: emergency9
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 12:33am

 

One Planer – We Love Ya.

 

Your vast experience and knowledge of the game is a treasure chest that trumps most, if not all, on this Forum (including Chuck). I paid particular attention to all your posts AND for good reasons: a successful one-plane convert, a collegiate teammate of Jack Nicklaus, a plus-one handicap, and a serious competitor but with a good sense of humor.

 

But I fear your last two excellent posts may have just given our non-technical brethren coronaries. Hopefully, given the hour – they will have had an adult beverage or two before they read them.

 

Keep up the thoughtful – often succinct – but always informative - posts! You’re the man!

 



Posted By: Bob34
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 12:59am

I'm with ya em9 in as far as paying attention to all of One Planer's posts. The only bit of advice One Planer has given I've read that I don't adhere to is restricting the hips on the backswing. I tend to go with what Adrian & Chuck say on the DVD. But that's what, one small thing out of a bazzilian very insightful thoughts on the game that One Planer has contributed...  I've said it before and will say it again, your contributions are very much appreciated One Planer!

Regards,

Bob

 



Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 1:03am

E-9,

you've got us non-techies all wrong, man.  I too, enjoy technical post, for how else would I learn the proper movements?



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Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: tinkers
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 1:48am
I have to be anal, straight golf shots are not hit with a square club face, but with a ***SLIGHTY*** open club face.


Posted By: hayes959
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 8:07am

Lefty,

About the ball position.  I went to a driving range the other day that has bisecting lines on the mats and I was shocked at how far forward I was playing my short irons, when I thought they were back in the middle of the stance.  Probably not a bad idea to place a club between our legs for ball position alignment to keep a check on this.



Posted By: Lefty
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 9:13am

You're right, Hayes. Good idea and I'll start doing that, too. And, oneplaner, thanks too for your always insightful posts. Always worth a read and good value.

Lefty



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 9:33am
Originally posted by Bob34

I'm with ya em9 in as far as paying attention to all of One Planer's posts. The only bit of advice One Planer has given I've read that I don't adhere to is restricting the hips on the backswing. I tend to go with what Adrian & Chuck say on the DVD. But that's what, one small thing out of a bazzilian very insightful thoughts on the game that One Planer has contributed...  I've said it before and will say it again, your contributions are very much appreciated One Planer!

Regards,

Bob

 



  Gosh, thanks for the kind comments, E-9 and Bob.  I'm just very enthusiastic about the one plane swing.  I think it's the cat's meow and the bee's knees.



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 9:34am
Originally posted by Lefty

You're right, Hayes. Good idea and I'll start doing that, too. And, oneplaner, thanks too for your always insightful posts. Always worth a read and good value.

Lefty



Thanks to you too, Lefty.  You've contributed a lot of good insights to this forum. 



Posted By: lc2426
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 2:42pm
One Planner, brilliant explanation. You are the man.

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lc


Posted By: JeffMann
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 3:40pm
One-planar

Thanks for your thoughts.

I still cannot understand how shots go straight when the ball is placed forward of centre. I presume that the hands are forward of the ball when impact occurs and the hands are also moving in an inward direction if the ball is placed forward of the central position. If the hands are both forward of the ball AND also moving in an inward direction, how does a player control the release in such a manner that the ball goes straight down the target line?

Jeff.


Posted By: Magic
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 11:35pm

Guys and Gals,

If I had to pick only one poster's post to read and heed, then those would be the post's of One Planer. I have been reading and learning from his post's ever since he was known by the moniker of "Machamish Mor" on RSG and that was long before this site even existed. Not only do his post's contain the knowledge and experience of decades of playing golf, but they are written in such a clear and consise manner, and often with a sense of humor, that leave no room for misinterpretation. I am continuely amazed at the vast store of knowledge and wisdom that he posesses on golf. The fact that he is willing to share that knowledge and wisdom, only serve to point out the nature of his character. He, my friends, is a Golfer in the truist sense and I can think of no greater compliment that I could pay him.

My admiration for One Planer is such that if I could play a round of golf with only one person, that person, other than my golfing hero and idol if he were alive, Ben Hogan, would be One Planer. Oh I know that he would beat me like a drum and if money was at stake, I would definitely have to get more strokes per side than my current handicap of 13 would suggest, but I know too that it would be a most enjoyable experience with a lot of good natured humor capped off by revisiting the round at the 19th hole with a few adult beverages.

Thanks One Planer for all you do to make these forums a truly enjoyable and learning experience.

Kindest Regards,

Magic   



Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 10 August 2005 at 11:47pm
Not to be out done, I, too, enjoy One Planer's posts, and many others of you out there.  This is a great site, and I must say quite unique for an Internet forum.  No other site I know would have kept its civility during a debate that lasted over 100 replies as it has in "Danger Will Robinson".  Great job too all, and I look forward to many more posts.

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Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: Lefty
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 1:03am
Civility, rag, is in the eye of the beholder


Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 2:15am

 

Originally posted by Lefty

Civility, rag, is in the eye of the beholder

Maybe I should quantify: relatively civil.

Unless, Lefty, you are implying I have not been civil, in which case I will promptly apologize to any I have offended.  I will stand by my ideals, but I strive to do so in a manner that respects others.  I hope this is not your implication.



-------------
Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 7:29am
Originally posted by Magic

Thanks One Planer for all you do to make these forums a truly enjoyable and learning experience.

Kindest Regards,

Magic   



Magic, you nearly moved me to tears with that encomium.    But then I realized you're just softening me up for more strokes when the day comes that we tee it up together, and how can I not buy the adult beverages in the 19th hole after I pay off the nassau about six ways. 

Seriously, thanks for your very kind words.  I'm just so stoked about the one plane swing that I want everyone to get it. 

Speaking of RSG, it may be a cess pit at times (remember my bitter exchanges with the G.S.E.M. of T.G.M?), but there were some interesting and informative threads amidst the detritus.  I don't read or post there any more.  This forum and playing golf consume the bulk of my time.  But it was on RSG that I found the link to Chuck's Web site.  Luckily for me, I clicked on it, and that was my intro to the 1PS.  I hadn't seen the Hardy/Jacobsen appearance on The Golf Channel or the article in Golf Digest.  I clicked through all the pages and read Chuck's explanation of the two different ways to swing a golf club, and it was like one of those moments when you smack your forhead with the heel of your hand and say to yourself, "Yes!!  That's it!!".  I got the idea immediately, and it worked almost from the first shot.

It may have been you, Magic, who posted that link.  If so, I'm eternally grateful, pal.  OK, so how many shots do you want? 



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 8:47am
Originally posted by JeffMann

One-planar

Thanks for your thoughts.

I still cannot understand how shots go straight when the ball is placed forward of centre. I presume that the hands are forward of the ball when impact occurs and the hands are also moving in an inward direction if the ball is placed forward of the central position. If the hands are both forward of the ball AND also moving in an inward direction, how does a player control the release in such a manner that the ball goes straight down the target line?

Jeff.


Jeff,

It's a real conundrum, isn't it?  What it comes down to is that the player doesn't control the release in any conscious sense.  He uses certain techniques to cause the release to happen as a natural result of the swinging motion. 

That's why there is so much focus on technique.  We're all looking for the right technique that releases the club optimally and automatically through impact.  The 1PS uses the path of the club (in to in), core rotation (hard to the left from the top) and passive arms and hands (centirpetal/centrifugal force) to achieve the optimum release.  The 2PS uses different techniques to acheive the same result. 

The only recent theory of the swing that calls for a conscious and deliberate hands release through impact that I've ever encountered is AJ Bonar's.  His ideas, which stem from Hogan, definitely have some merit.

As for your other question about how the ball can go straight when positioned forward of center, I've been doing some more thinking about how to explain it. 

You're on the right track with your comment about the hands being forward of the ball at impact, but there is one other factor to consider, namely, the bottom point of the swing arc. 

In a proper swing, the bottom of the arc is always under the forward shoulder joint.  The club will not turn inside the line until it reaches the bottom of its arc.  That's when the hands turn inside the line, and the club will necessarily follow the hands. 

If you've read Hardy's book, you'll recall his discussion of the two parallel semi-circles, one for the hands (inner circle) and one for the clubhead (outer circle).

Put the two ingredients together and you've got your answer.  We position the ball progressively back in the stance as the clubs get shorter because the shorter clubs, irons, must be hit with a descending clubhead to produce the desired trajectory and spin. 

In order to produce the descending angle of attack, the hands must be forward of the ball at impact.  That is, the shaft is leaning forward, delofting the face, when the swing bottoms out under the forward shoulder joint.  From there, the hands turn to the inside on Hardy's inner semi-circle, and the clubhead follows on the outer semi-circle.  Since the divot begins very slightly in front of the ball and extends onwards for a short distance, it will point slightly to the left of the target line in a well struck iron shot.

The situation is different with the driver and fairway metals.  They are not struck with a descending clubhead but rather when the clubhead is traveling parallel to the ground in the brief flat spot directly under the forward shoulder joint.  We don't want the hands leading the clubhead at impact.  We want them directly over the ball or just very slightly ahead of the ball for fairway metals.  Thus, we postion the ball forward with the metals, either directly under the left shoulder joint or very slightly ahead of it in the case of the teed up driver.  Again, the hands and the club turn immediately to the inside after impact and both swing around to the left on the parallel semi-circles.

Am I making any sense?  There are two positions to consider.  The position of the ball in relation to the bottom of the swing arc and position of the bottom of the swing arc itself, which is under the forward shoulder joint.  That's the best I can do. 



Posted By: Lefty
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 9:21am

Rag, in the words of that great modern philosopher, Snoop Dogg, be cool, fool ...

I'm having a bit of fun and certainly wasn't singling you out at all. Though I do think it's somewhat disturbing that we seem to be splintering when there's really no need.

As I've said before, it's a matter of emphasis. However, if you aren't sure of your sequence (ie, how to swing) then it really doesn't matter how mentally tough you are, you're not going to play your best; you merely make the best of a bad situation, which has its merits but isn't ideal.

There are guys with bad swings who know how to get it in the hole and there are guys with great swings who shoot in the 80s but, at the end of the day, you'd want to have a solid swing AND know how to get it in the hole.

So my priority would be to make sure you learn the swing until you have it down pat and then, to get to the next level, work on the mental game. It seems to me that doing it the other way would be putting the proverbial cart before the horse.

As an aside, a friend of mine, who was a college golfer - and a good one - and now plays sporadically (though still shooting in the 70s) maintains that no one should carry a handicap above single digits. His reasoning is that the fundamentals aren't that hard to duplicate and, if you figure out how to chip it close and make a few relatively short putts, you should shoot in the 70s. As another sage once told me, miss 18 greens and get up and down, you're a scratch golfer, but it's better to not miss all those greens ...

Can't argue with that logic.

Lefty

NB - Also, and this shouldn't be overlooked, we're all at different stages in the process on this forum. So there will be guys who feel they have the swing down who are wasting shots on the course because of mental lapses and guys who aren't sure they have the swing down at all, all the way down to true beginners. I think we need to cut people some slack and if they ask for technical information, be willing to pass it along.

I played the other day at TPC Scottsdale with a guy who can't break 100 and another who struggles to break 90. Just the luck of the starters' draw. I spent most of my day helping them with their swings. They felt bad but, you know, when I started playing, there were better players who helped me along the way. I feel that this game of ours is a journey and it's almost my duty to help those in need move along, just as others helped me.

 



Posted By: novelt
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 10:19am

OP-

That is the first time I ahve ever heard that explanation of the bottm of the swings arc...it makes sense, I think.  But how do we create divots behind the bottom (as referenced by you) with irons that are played in the middle of our stance?  Does that correlate to some sort of reverse (I guess) weight shift?  And furthermore should we strive for divots that are deepest at the point just below our forward shoulder joint?



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Novelty - Something new and unusual; an innovation.


Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 10:48am

Lefty,

Splintering is definitely not my intention, and I agree that all of us are at different stages on the learning curve.  I never meant to suggest that there was no room for mechanics, for if I did I would be a hypocrite, trust me.



-------------
Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: JeffMann
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 10:58am
One planar

I like some of your ideas, but they are definitely not Hardy's ideas. Hardy definitely implies that the lowest point of the arc should be centralised between the legs and not in the region of the left armpit.

By contrast, Hogan placed all his balls just inside his left heel opposite his left armpit (even when hitting wedges). He managed to hit straight because his DS plane was not fixedly narrow like Hardy's inner-circle drill suggestion. Hogan did a number of things differently -- he markedly shifted his hips to the left at the start of the DS and he shifted his central axis over towards the left foot so that at impact he had nearly all his body weight over a straight left leg AND his DS plane was tilted to the right and slightly upwards. In other words, Hogan consciously tried to hit down the target line, or slightly right of the target line. Hardy's swing is too narrow and it encourages a player to turn in too fast and I am therefore not surprised that many newcomers are hitting left. Hitting left is also more likely if one fixedly keeps one's body weight centralised between the legs. I think that all good players (eg. Hogan, Singh, Els, Woods) shift a significant amount of their body weight to the left by the time of impact and they have a more flowing followthrough that doesn't abruptly turn inwards. I also think that those good players have the lowest point of their swing arc closer to being opposite the left armpit (as you suggested) rather than being in the centre of their stance. Those players only play their short irons closer to the centre of their stance because they concentrate on having a more compact swing with less torso shift. They generally try to keep their lower body quiet when using short irons and their body weight therefore doesn't shift towards their left armpit as much as occurs with long irons/woods.

I think that if a a newcomer to a 1PS (as taught by Hardy/Quinton) is hitting his balls to the left he should consider a few modifications that may result in a striaghter ball flight -- allow a small amount of body weight shift to the left in the DS so that a significant amount of the torso weight is over the left leg at impact; followthrough down the target line and don't rigidly keep the left arm glued to the left chest in the late-part of the followthrough arc (which results in a swing that is too narrow and too constricting); ensure that the bottom of the swing arc is consistent with the ball position when hitting mid/short irons (it cannot be well behind the ball as would occur if the ball position was a few inches forward of center and the lowest point of the swing arc was centralised between the legs).

Jeff.


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 11:23am
Originally posted by novelt

OP-

That is the first time I ahve ever heard that explanation of the bottm of the swings arc...it makes sense, I think.  But how do we create divots behind the bottom (as referenced by you) with irons that are played in the middle of our stance?  Does that correlate to some sort of reverse (I guess) weight shift?  And furthermore should we strive for divots that are deepest at the point just below our forward shoulder joint?



I think you've misunderstood me, Novelt.  The divot starts just forward of the ball (on the target side), not behind the bottom of the ball.  It doesn't correlate to a reverse weight shift.  It correlates to the desired path of the clubhead through impact.  We should not "strive" for divots.  They should happen because we maintain our spine angle and strike iron shots with a descending blow.  With irons, you have to hit down to make the ball go up.



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 11:34am
Originally posted by JeffMann

One planar

I like some of your ideas, but they are definitely not Hardy's ideas. Hardy definitely implies that the lowest point of the arc should be centralised between the legs and not in the region of the left armpit.

I don't recall Hardy saying this.  Do you have a page reference?

By contrast, Hogan placed all his balls just inside his left heel opposite his left armpit (even when hitting wedges). He managed to hit straight because his DS plane was not fixedly narrow like Hardy's inner-circle drill suggestion. Hogan did a number of things differently -- he markedly shifted his hips to the left at the start of the DS and he shifted his central axis over towards the left foot so that at impact he had nearly all his body weight over a straight left leg AND his DS plane was tilted to the right and slightly upwards. In other words, Hogan consciously tried to hit down the target line, or slightly right of the target line. Hardy's swing is too narrow and it encourages a player to turn in too fast and I am therefore not surprised that many newcomers are hitting left. Hitting left is also more likely if one fixedly keeps one's body weight centralised between the legs. I think that all good players (eg. Hogan, Singh, Els, Woods) shift a significant amount of their body weight to the left by the time of impact and they have a more flowing followthrough that doesn't abruptly turn inwards. I also think that those good players have the lowest point of their swing arc closer to being opposite the left armpit (as you suggested) rather than being in the centre of their stance. Those players only play their short irons closer to the centre of their stance because they concentrate on having a more compact swing with less torso shift. They generally try to keep their lower body quiet when using short irons and their body weight therefore doesn't shift towards their left armpit as much as occurs with long irons/woods.

There's no doubt that there are differences between Hogan and Hardy.  There are also big time differences between what Hogan said he did and what he actually did.  We could discuss those differences if you like, but I thought you were looking for an explanation of why we don't position the ball in the center of the stance for every shot.  That's what I've explained.

I think that if a a newcomer to a 1PS (as taught by Hardy/Quinton) is hitting his balls to the left he should consider a few modifications that may result in a striaghter ball flight -- allow a small amount of body weight shift to the left in the DS so that a significant amount of the torso weight is over the left leg at impact; followthrough down the target line and don't rigidly keep the left arm glued to the left chest in the late-part of the followthrough arc (which results in a swing that is too narrow and too constricting); ensure that the bottom of the swing arc is consistent with the ball position when hitting mid/short irons (it cannot be well behind the ball as would occur if the ball position was a few inches forward of center and the lowest point of the swing arc was centralised between the legs).

If that's what works for you, then that's what you should do, Jeff.



Jeff.


Posted By: novelt
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 3:20pm

It would help if I typed a little slower allowing those years of experience using the English language to work properly. 

The question I was trying to ask should have been more like:  If a golfer is creating divots that start just after impact when the ball is played in the middle of the stance are you implying that they have created some sort of reverse weight shift or an early relase?  According to your description the divots should start further down the target line (i.e. near the forward shoulder joint) correct? 



-------------
Novelty - Something new and unusual; an innovation.


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by novelt

It would help if I typed a little slower allowing those years of experience using the English language to work properly. 

The question I was trying to ask should have been more like:  If a golfer is creating divots that start just after impact when the ball is played in the middle of the stance are you implying that they have created some sort of reverse weight shift or an early relase?  According to your description the divots should start further down the target line (i.e. near the forward shoulder joint) correct? 



OK, we'll try this again. 

You never want a reverse weight shift, but with the one plane swing, there is a feeling of hanging a little more to the left.  In fact, Hardy says it's better to hang a little left with the spine and weight during the backswing because it keeps you over the ball, and it's easier to maintain your spine angle in that position vs. shifting the spine and weight to the right.  When I first tried it, it did feel like a reverse weight shift, but then I simply put a bit more weight on my left foot at address, and it eliminated the feeling that I was leaning my upper torso to the left on the backswing.

If the spine moves away from the target, your shoulders tend to get into a tilt when you start the turn back to the ball.  That causes the spine to straighten up.  The result would probably be either a fat shot or a thin shot, depending on what you tried to do to save it.

The other point is that only the short irons are played from the middle of the stance.  Longer clubs are positioned progressively forward of the center.  Short irons are swung on a more upright plane, closer to the target line, than the longer clubs.  Because the shaft is shorter and the spine is a little more bent over, the short irons follow a more up and down path.  The angle of attack is steeper or more descending.  The hands reach the low point under the forward shoulder joint before the clubhead does.  Thus, the clubhead is still descending when the hands start to turn to the inside.  The divot is in front of the ball, but not by an amount equal to the distance between, say, the sternum and the left shoulder joint because of the steepness of the downswing.

Ball position is really an individual thing.  It takes some experimentation to find what's right for you.  In my own case, I play short irons slightly forward of center and move the ball forward from there as the clubs get longer.  I postion the ball for tee shots opposite my left heel.  YMMV.



Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 5:59pm

Couple of stupid questions:

One:  If you are supposed to hit the driver on the up swing, as I have read countless times, doesn't it stand to reason that the club head will have already reached its lowest point in the swing and also started to come back inside at impact?

 

Two:  Hardy mentions that it is okay to open up the shoulders at address in the one-plane swing, especially with longer clubs.  Those who have experience, is this to facilitate the more forward ball position?

Thanks in advance

 



-------------
Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: novelt
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 7:18pm

OP - It clicked when you mentioned the arc of the hands bottoming out ahead of the clubhead, now it makes perfect sense.  I understood the other pieces you mentioned, it was the bottom of the arc and the lforward shoulder that wasn't clicking.

 

Ragtop - I thought he said opening the shoulders was not a good thing, but slightly closed was OK.



-------------
Novelty - Something new and unusual; an innovation.


Posted By: Magic
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 9:04pm

Guys and Gals,

This post is probably a off topic to what is being discussed here and in all likelyhood should be posted as a new topic, but since I have just put in a 13 hour day and am tired and sitting here enjoying perhaps the coldest beer to have ever crossed my lips and am just too damn lazy, I will make my observation quick and to the point.

While I was sitting here reading thru this discussion, it suddenly struck me just how ironic it is that here we are some 50 odd years after Mr. Hogan was in his prime as a golfer, discussing the way Mr. Hogan swung a golf club. Perhaps it is not the major championships and all that Mr. Hogan accomplished during his great career that will be his legacy to the game, but his true legacy to golf will be that of being perhaps the greatest single individual to influence the golf swing in the history of the sport. One Planer mentioned that A.J. Bonner based much of his theories on Hogan's techniques. Jim Hardy has said it was John Jacobs stating that Hogan swung everything on one plane as the genesis for the search that ultimately led to his formulating his theories on having two separate sets of fundamentals for the 1ps and 2ps. David Leadbetter's article on Hogan's Fundamentals. Jim McLean's Analysis of Hogan's Swing. Hell, even the TGMer's point to Mr. Hogan's swing as the near perfect example of the hitting technique of TGM. I sure that there are others, but these are just a few off the top of my head that have been influenced by the way Mr. Hogan swung a golf club. His little book that started out as a series in a magazine and went on to become "Five Lessons The Modern Fundamentals of Golf" that is a classic of golf instruction that has been read by untold millions of golfers worldwide. God willing, "The Plane Truth for Golfer's by Jim Hardy will take it's rightful place along side of "Five Lessons" one day.

I wonder if Ben Hogan ever dreamed of the influence that his swing and swing theories would have the impact that they have had in the past 50 years, and in all probabilty, many years into the future as well. I wonder if he were alive today, just what he would think of all this........

Quick and to the point? O.K., I lied! Just some ramblings of one tired old fart that needs another cold beer and dinner.  

Regards,

Magic 



Posted By: emergency9
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 10:42pm

 

Magic,

 

I couldn’t agree more.

 

I have a multiple-monitor computer setup (the technocrat that I am) and after working hours - I often play a slow motion video clip that I have of Hogan on one of my monitors.

 

So while reading your post - I am watching Hogan - eating my dinner (a bowl of chili) and drinking a cold one. I raise my glass and say AMEN.

 



Posted By: moonshot
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 11:10pm

>>I wonder if Ben Hogan ever dreamed of the influence that his swing and swing theories would have the impact that they have had in the past 50 years, and in all probabilty, many years into the future as well. I wonder if he were alive today, just what he would think of all this........<<

 

The more I study the swing, going from one book to another back to Hogans book to compare, the more I realize what a genius this guy was.

The Fundamentals book seems simple, but if you are not paying attention to where he puts the commas and the simple things he says you will not get it.

If you do not have a neutral to weak grip like he shows, you will not be able to bow out the lead wrist at impact..and on and on..

The experts say that only Hogan could use his techniques because of his uniqueness, but I am beginning to doubt that. His swing seems quite simple comparatively speaking, IF one does exactly as Hogan says.

However it may be nececessary to learn the basic swing to understand what he is expressing.

 This is where Chucks' one plane comes in, because it is a simple more basic movement from which I think a person can add moves or leave as is and have fun playing not thinking about the technical aspect.. Wink

dp



Posted By: emergency9
Date Posted: 11 August 2005 at 11:29pm

 

moonshot,

 

You lost me on that last post. You went from Hogan is the man – to don’t think about the swing.

 

No one thought more about the swing than Hogan!

 

Arba, you are in the right place - everyone on this Forum needs a shrink! Most of Chuck’s recent posts are commercials for the Members’ Vault – you need to start airing your own commercials.

 



Posted By: moonshot
Date Posted: 12 August 2005 at 12:14am

>You lost me on that last post. You went from Hogan is the man – to don’t think about the swing.<

Didn't mean to confuse anyone. I agree Hogan was the ultimate thinker about the swing.

I am just saying that the baseball style swing is probaby easier to learn and maintain for the occasional golfer. And I think would only help someone if they wanted to move further into understanding exactly what Hogan is all about.

Myself, I am obsessed with this *&%^ swing until I have a clear picture of exactly what I am supposed to be doing, and Hogan has become my model.

And each week I get a little closer...

dp



Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 12 August 2005 at 12:42am
The supination of the wrist is one area where I am going to have to assume that because my ball contact is really good right now, I am either doing it right, or my swing does not require it.  How Hogan figured out that he was making this small move is a testament to how great he really was.

-------------
Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 12 August 2005 at 8:02am
Originally posted by 01ragtop

The supination of the wrist is one area where I am going to have to assume that because my ball contact is really good right now, I am either doing it right, or my swing does not require it.  How Hogan figured out that he was making this small move is a testament to how great he really was.


If you feel you are releasing the club aggressively through impact, then you are supinating.  It's the inevitable consequence of releasing the club. You don't have to think about it.  Passive arms and hands and a centripetal/centrifugal release will create the supination. 

You'd know if you aren't supinating.  Your shots would be weak fades off an open clubface.  When you supinate, the shaft/clubhead rotate through impact.  The clubface goes from open to square to closed which adds leverage to the shot.
 


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 12 August 2005 at 8:20am
Originally posted by 01ragtop

Couple of stupid questions:

One:  If you are supposed to hit the driver on the up swing, as I have read countless times, doesn't it stand to reason that the club head will have already reached its lowest point in the swing and also started to come back inside at impact?

It depends on where you position the ball.  If you position it too far ahead of your forward shoulder joint, what you've said is exactly what would happen.  The clubhead would be traveling up and to the left at impact, adding loft and unwanted spin.  The question is:  do we really want to hit the driver on the upswing, or do we want impact to be in the flat zone when the club is briefly traveling level to the ground?  I'll vote for level.

 

Two:  Hardy mentions that it is okay to open up the shoulders at address in the one-plane swing, especially with longer clubs.  Those who have experience, is this to facilitate the more forward ball position?

I don't think so.  I think it's to facilitate open shoulders at impact.



Posted By: emergency9
Date Posted: 12 August 2005 at 4:15pm

 

01ragtop,

 

Another benefit of opening the shoulders a little is to level them out without tilting them. See page 17 – 2/3rds of the way down - in the “Bible”.

 

I’m not aware of Jim ever making a distinction regarding the length of the club.

 



Posted By: 01ragtop
Date Posted: 12 August 2005 at 5:52pm

One Planer & Emergency9,

Thanks, of course, that makes sense. 

One Planer,

So you think the driver should be hit during the flat zone?  This is the first time I have ever heard this.  Am I misinformed by the glossy pages of Golf and Golf Digest once again?  Say it ain't so!



-------------
Golf is 90% mental, and 20% physical!


Posted By: ecnerwal
Date Posted: 13 August 2005 at 12:23am
Originally posted by emergency9

 

One Planer – We Love Ya.

 

Your vast experience and knowledge of the game is a treasure chest that trumps most, if not all, on this Forum (including Chuck). I paid particular attention to all your posts AND for good reasons: a successful one-plane convert, a collegiate teammate of Jack Nicklaus, a plus-one handicap, and a serious competitor but with a good sense of humor.

 



You left out personal friend of A. J Bonar!


Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 13 August 2005 at 6:30am
Originally posted by 01ragtop

One Planer & Emergency9,

Thanks, of course, that makes sense. 

One Planer,

So you think the driver should be hit during the flat zone?  This is the first time I have ever heard this.  Am I misinformed by the glossy pages of Golf and Golf Digest once again?  Say it ain't so!



Gosh, those glossies wouldn't do that, would they? 

Actually, I stopped reading the golf mags a few years ago when they became too unwieldy with advertising.  It wasn't the advertising itself that I objected to.  That's capitalism at its best, and I love capitalism.  I just got irritated with all the inserts falling out and with finding the page number of an article I was reading when it was continued in the back of the mag.  The pages with the resort ads aren't numbered like the other pages.  Plus, there was too much swing advice, too much emphasis on Tiger Woods, and too much general bullsh*t.  Golfweek is ok, but I forgot to renew my subscription and then discovered that I don't miss it.  This damn computer has taken over the time I used to spend reading golf mags, the classics of literature, and the great philosophers and historians. 

As for the business of hitting the driver on the upswing, I think that got started during the Dark Ages when all we had to work with was persimmon.  With these newfangled metals, all you have to do is hit the ball on the high center of the clubface and up she goes on a high launch angle with low spin, so hitting the ball in the flat zone is the preferred technique.



Posted By: One Planer
Date Posted: 13 August 2005 at 6:36am
Originally posted by ecnerwal

Originally posted by emergency9

 

One Planer – We Love Ya.

 

Your vast experience and knowledge of the game is a treasure chest that trumps most, if not all, on this Forum (including Chuck). I paid particular attention to all your posts AND for good reasons: a successful one-plane convert, a collegiate teammate of Jack Nicklaus, a plus-one handicap, and a serious competitor but with a good sense of humor.

 



You left out personal friend of A. J Bonar!


Shhhhhhh.  AJ doesn't know that I've gone to passive hands.   He would ------>

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